Interview with Communications Expert Jeff O'Dea

Hi, we are The 3 English Experts. I'm Rebecca. I'm Dave. I'm Birgit. And welcome to this episode. 3 English Experts is your English podcast to help you speak better English and create a positive and happy mindset for your English learning journey. So welcome today, guys. Again, a little bit of a different format. We have an interview today with somebody who Birgit is now going to introduce to you. So Birgit, over to you. Who is our guest today? Yes, thank you, Dave. And just want to say that Rebecca is not here today. Unfortunately, she's away. So it's Dave and me and Jeff O'Day. Jeff, he lives in Japan and he helps Japanese professionals to improve their English confidence. And how did I meet Jeff? That was on LinkedIn. I caught eye of his wonderful Stickman drawings. I would like to call them now for now. And they catch people's attention. So I commented on them and Jeff wrote back to me and we had a little conversation, this and that. And that was very nice. And when we were thinking of having interview guests or guests on our podcast, I thought of him and asked him and he was happy to come on. So very welcome, Jeff. Thank you, Birgit. And David, nice to meet you. Nice to see you. And please introduce yourself. Where are you from? What do you do? Why are you in Japan? So you said you came to my posts on LinkedIn that grabbed your attention were the ones that had the drawings. So that's kind of what I'm known for now, where I create, I talk about communication, but I always add a small drawing that adds some value and meaning to the posts that I've made. And the pictures are really, really simple. I mean, you call them stick figures, which is not far off from where they are. But one of the things I like to do there is use the highlight colors. So I love the bright yellows and greens and oranges. And what I try to do is create a simple picture that demonstrates the message. And the color has some sort of meaning within the picture and adds to the value of it. And I think it kind of grabs attention on LinkedIn because there's not a lot of hand drawn images. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. I think that appeals to people. It's very natural and not perfect. And you can see that it's drawn by hand. And some of the pictures, they can be done very quickly if they're really, really simple. And I just start with a pencil drawing and go over it with pen and then get my pack of highlighter colors and go out and sort of work out what I want and then make sure I've got a story that goes with it. But my background, I was originally a primary school teacher in Australia. So I graduated from university, went into primary school teaching. I taught for about four years and then went traveling with my partner. We did a trip around the world, backpacking, came back through Japan. And because we were both teachers, we were able to get work here and come in on a working holiday visa. And we did that kind of in our mid-twenties and planned to stay a year. And it's just been a lot longer. So you like Japan, obviously. Yeah, it was never really my intention. My wife had this fascination for Japan. It's on my list of places to go, yes. I ended up following her and, you know, I love Japan now, but I never really had any deep desire to go to Japan. But it was really more her that drove that. On your travels around the world, have you stopped in Germany? So have you been to Germany? Not on that initial trip, but we've been back several times. I was there actually when the Millennium ticked over at the Brandenburg Gate. Oh, wow. Cool. And that was kind of crazy. Yeah, it was an exciting time. Yeah. So we have traveled through Germany, yes. To the hand drawings, you say that's simple drawings, but you see, that's the art, to be simple, but still bring the message. So I don't think I would like any just kind of hand drawing, but it's something special about here. So do you think you have a talent or you've always liked to draw? It's funny you say that because prior to going into primary school teaching, I actually wanted to be a graphic designer, but I wasn't good enough and they rejected me. So I went into primary school teaching and I always used to do a little bit of drawing for the kids on the blackboard. We had blackboards, but then not whiteboards. Whiteboards, blackboards, we need to explain that to the young adults. Up until kind of COVID, when I started writing on LinkedIn more and more, and I didn't always, I didn't start with the drawings, but they just started coming in naturally and I started adding them and I noticed I got a lot more interactions with the posts that had the drawings. So I did a couple of tests, I'd stopped doing the drawings and the interactions dropped, added a couple of drawings, the interactions popped up. Since then, and now it's just, I think in drawings in a way, it's like I'm having a conversation with a trainee and they'll say something that just creates an image in my mind. So I've got to quickly during the training, do a quick sketch on a piece of paper and then I push that aside and then focus on the trainee and then come back to it later because if I don't, I'll just lose the idea and then I can pick that up and run with it and take it from there. But you see, this shows how the brain works. When we think of learning a language now, what do you think, what can we teach people here or what do you do when you teach people English in Japan? I guess I tend to start with Japanese. I work basically exclusively with Japanese business professionals and I generally start by asking them what's the goal of communication in any language, whether it's French, German, Japanese, English, what's the goal? And the first goal and they usually get this, but the first goal is to understand and be understood. If you can't understand what's happening in a meeting, then you can't do anything else. You can't agree or disagree or ask a question or make a comment or negotiate because you don't have the understanding. So that's the first step. We've got to understand. The next step or the next goal that I tell them is that they have to positively impact the atmosphere, decisions, directions, relationships, outcomes of the meetings, and by that they have to add value. And then once we've defined those two goals, the question is how do we achieve those two goals? How do we understand and how do we add value? And if I tell you what the answer is not, which is silence, they start to work out, you can work out what the answer is because you can't understand through silence and you can't add value through silence. Many Japanese think that the way to understand is to what they say, listen harder. Ah, listen harder. Yeah, listen harder. I say, how do you improve your understanding in a meeting? We need to listen harder. What does that mean? They literally mean listen harder, focus. And my point to them is no, you're not going to change your understanding today by listening harder. You can improve your listening skills or your passive listening skills over six months, 12 months, two years. But today, if you need to understand more, what you have to do is speak. And this is counterintuitive to Japanese because they think listening is using their ears only. But my point to them is no, you can speak to improve what you are hearing and therefore understand more. I tend to start by focusing on and teaching them certain skills, what I call the super six. So the super six from my perspective are, and this is what Japanese, they don't learn this in high school or university. They study English and they study the grammar and the vocab. The super six are basically, firstly, interrupting, second, asking for repetition, third, asking for clarification and doing so repeatedly if need be, fourth is paraphrasing. And I'll come back to that one in a minute because that's a really important skill. And fifth is asking questions and six is giving opinions. Now they're the super six, that's what I call them. And the first five of those are really about improving understanding. You can interrupt and ask for repetition that improves your understanding. You can interrupt and ask for clarification. You can interrupt and paraphrase. You can ask a question. All of those actions are going to improve your understanding, which comes back to that first goal. And then giving opinions, once you've got that understanding, you can give opinions, you can ask questions, you can do other things, you can agree or disagree to impact or add value. But they've got to be able to use those super six skills fluently. I don't mean they need to be able to speak English fluently, but they need to be able to, in a meeting, when their understanding drops, they need to recognise where is their level and what action can they take? Do they need to ask for repetition? Do they need to ask for clarification? Are they able to paraphrase? What's their level and what action do they need to take? And if they do that, they can develop the confidence to take those actions and improve their understanding and then start to build a relationship with the people that they are talking to. Because in silence, there's no relationship. And when you want to create good communication, you first got to create a relationship and you've got to build that connection with people and you cannot do that through silence. So I often tell them silence is a killer. I say silence is a killer. It kills connections. It kills conversations. And they think that's funny, but it's very serious, too. It's a kind of funny, serious message that I try to get them to understand. Yeah. And it's probably important that somebody from outside Japan does that, because obviously that's an issue in Japan. I don't know, to keep silent. I don't know. Yeah. Because Japan is very much a culture that's focused on maintaining harmony. And it's about not putting yourself forward. And it's about deferring to other people. And you might think I've got a question, but I'm just one of a group of people. And I shouldn't burden people with my questions. And I always tell them, first of all, it's not a burden. That's why you're in the meeting. We're having the meeting so you can ask questions. We're there to help you understand. And if you don't take the action to understand, you're actually not doing your job. You are failing to take advantage of the meeting. It's not attend the meeting and then send an email later to find out what happened. It's used the meeting time. So Japanese are very focused on harmony and respect. And they think often, and I'm talking generally, but the ones who struggle often think my question is a burden. No, it's not. It's what we want to hear. So I have to explain to them that in English, we don't care about harmony as much as they do. We really care about respect for people. But harmony is not the issue. So our focus is on clarity, clarity of understanding. So therefore, we're going to engage more. We're going to ask the questions, ask for repetition, ask for clarification. We're going to paraphrase. And we're going to use those skills. Now, when a Japanese person joins an English meeting, they find it chaotic because they're used to meetings that are very quiet. One person is talking, they're taking their time, they'll finish, there'll be a pause, there'll be a moment of waiting, and then somebody else may speak. So it's almost like a turn taking. You can get busy and chaotic meetings sometimes. But there's a much more kind of regulated approach to it. Whereas English meetings are far more chaotic. I'm sure you and David would agree that people interrupt, people start a sentence and stop and then somebody jumps over the top of them. And there's all of that happening, which for a Japanese person, from a cultural perspective, it's crazy. They not only have to understand the language, but they've got to follow this crazy tennis match that's going back. What's going on. That brings us to the cultural aspect, Dave. I think David has got ideas here. Yeah. Yeah. But if I just go back to one of the points in the Super 6 that I think is probably one of the most underrated skills or underused skills in Japan, and that's paraphrasing. It tends to be that Japanese don't paraphrase a lot in their own language. They will, if I have a question, I'll ask a question, but they don't reconfirm. So I can tell them that I work with a lot of people in pharmaceuticals. And I explained to them that pharmaceuticals is an evidence-based industry. You have to show evidence of efficacy and safety that your drugs are appropriate. And I think the way I align this is I tell them that English is also an evidence-based language. We want evidence that you've understood. It's not enough just to say, hey, I understand. It's clear. No, we want you to say, what is it you understand? And this is where paraphrasing is really powerful because you can say, yeah, I think I understand your point. What you're saying is A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And even if they can't paraphrase correctly, what they're showing is that they don't understand, and that's also beneficial and that's helpful. So again, avoid silence and take the action to speak up. I'm super six. Jeff, that's amazing. But I'm often thinking then, it's great for your students who go into the meeting, learn this. How do the Japanese who haven't been in your course or haven't worked with you, how do they react to the Japanese colleagues, co-workers who then behave with the super six or work with the super six, put it that way? Yeah, generally they'll say, so if the person looks at them and said, why are you so active? Oh, I was in Jeff's training. I say, I tell them to blame it on me. If anyone says you're being too active, the manager paid for this training with Jeff and this is what Jeff taught us to do. And then the other thing, David, is often I try to connect it back to their core values. I try to connect it back to their core values. And core values are one of those controversial things in that some people think they're really important, some people kind of ignore them, but I try to connect communication to core values. So often a typical core value will be integrity. And integrity basically means honesty, right? Speaking up honestly. If you want to have integrity, then in your meetings, you have to say, hey, I don't understand this. I'm lost. Could you help me? Could you explain this? That's integrity. If your core value is passion, you can't just join a meeting and attend the meeting. You've got to actually participate in the meeting and show that participation. I'll often tell them that passion can compensate for a lack of fluency so that you might not be a fluent English speaker. And most people I've worked with are not fluent English speakers and probably never will be. But when they are active and passionate and engaged, that makes up for any lack of fluency because it starts to build a relationship. People start to care about them. Their global colleagues will care about them, and they will work with them to help them share their message. How long did it take you to get this far, Jeff? I mean, firstly, how long have you been in, approximately, how long have you been in Japan? How long did it sort of take you to figure this out? Because I'm sure at the very beginning, there were so many cultural shocks for you to ride through. When I came to Japan, originally, I was working for a language school. One of those typical, I think it was BBC language school. And then I went to Cambridge language school. And one of my clients there was Pfizer. I used to train a couple of groups of Pfizer staff. They would come to the school, which was near their company. And that school closed down suddenly. And then the manager from Pfizer said, could you come directly and work with us directly? Because the school had closed. Over time, I started working with Pfizer. And my position there grew. I was never an employee. I was always a kind of vendor. But I had a computer and a desk and all that sort of stuff. And I just started developing that curriculum. And I started to realize that I could create materials that were actually better than what I found in the textbooks that were around. So my materials that I created actually targeted the people that I was working with rather than a standard generic book. And that's what kind of really started the journey, I guess, because then I could realize, OK, I know what they need. I can create a plan that works for that. I guess that's the background there. And it's just grown from there. David, did you run into any sort of frustrations, though, on your side? Because I'm not saying the pushback, but this idea of the silence and their culture, you had difficulty sort of actually persuading people in the want of a better word to work in that way. Yeah, sure. I do a lot of workshops and I do a lot of ongoing training. Workshops are great for bringing attention to a kind of issue. And I've just done a workshop at Johnson & Johnson in the last week. We did two, three-hour workshops and we focused on the super six and we dealt with some of their problems and issues and gave them a bit of support. The problem with workshops is, you know, that like two weeks, three weeks, a month later, that kind of gotten everything. Whereas I like to do what I really like. I love the workshops. They're a lot of fun. There's a lot of growth there, too. But ongoing sessions are where I really love to work because we can build on what we're doing week after week. We can give them lots of opportunity to practice because you've got to have the skills, you've got to kind of push the mindset and you've got to have opportunity to practice those skills and practice and fail and practice and fail and keep going. So on a weekly basis, if I do a course over 12 weeks or 18 weeks, we can do that kind of that builds over a longer time. So they develop the courage and the confidence to use those in the meetings. And then between each session, they have challenges to try and paraphrase more in a meeting or ask for clarification or get involved more. And then we talk about how they went and what they did. So there's a lot of feedback and I'm kind of like in between a coach and a trainer. I'm not a coach, but training is about the skills, right? Coaching, I think to me, is about, well, it's different things. But in my point, it's more like a team coach in that giving them encouragement, you can do this. What's holding you back? Come on, you can get into that. It's not hard for you to ask a question. You're giving them some sort of encouragement in that area. And through those weeks of training, over time, they start to actually believe that they can do it and see that when they ask a question, it's not a burden to anyone. It's not trouble for anyone else. Might be something valuable for the meeting. It's valuable. Yeah. And their colleagues, their European or American or Australian colleagues actually start to say, oh, thank you for participating in the session. Thanks for getting involved. We really love it when Japan speaks. It's nothing worth if you're in a group standing in front of a class and you don't get any feedback as a teacher. I mean, that's no fun because you don't know what's going on in there. You've got to use a lot of humor when you're doing the training to you and you've got to kind of push them, push and pull them. Sometimes you've just got to say, come on, you're not six years old, you're a business professional. You can ask a question in a meeting and even your core value says curiosity, right? That means show some interest. So giving them that permission or that ability to connect to those things and recognise, yeah, yeah, I can do this. I think building them up in that way is really important. What you said is interesting, that you said most of the people I meet, they are not fluent in English speakers. That might be very interesting for our listeners. And then you said, and they probably never will be, but that's not important when you interact and have a relationship. And that's interesting. It's so interesting for our listeners because Germans, they want to be perfect, if not even 120% sure before they even speak up. And this is why I enjoy and prefer one-to-one sessions because people can back down if they are in a class, they will shut down and not speak up. You can't do that in a one-to-one session. I can build a relationship and I can pull. Yeah, I can pull. Actually, and I hear what you're saying that they have nowhere to go. They can't hide in a one-to-one session, right? That's true. But what I find is, yes, they hide in a group meeting. So this is why I like to have group training. Yesterday, I did a workshop with 26 people. That's very different. But a typical weekly group might have six people in it, okay, face-to-face or online, because they generally have to participate in group meetings. So they've got to learn to deal with English in a group situation also. Training them one-on-one is sometimes very useful, but one-on-one communication tends to be much easier for Japanese, at least. They don't have too much trouble with that. But put them in a group with two, three, four, five, six people, and there's always one person who speaks more. And many of the Japanese will say, well, she's a better speaker. I'll let her speak, and I'll just sit back. You can't do that. You're not going to grow, you're not going to add value, and you're not going to understand. But getting back to your point about fluency and perfection, Japanese are very much about perfection too. I had a guy yesterday in this training who said, I said, why do you hesitate? Why do you hesitate to speak up? He said, well, I want my English to be perfect. I said, I don't care if it's perfect. Go back to our two goals of communication. What's the first goal? To be understood and to add value. I don't need your English to be perfect to understand it. And I don't need your English to be perfect for you to add value to this meeting. If it's not perfect, we can work together to understand it. If it's really tough for you, I'll work with you. But if you are silent, I can't help you at all. And you're not having any impact, and you're not improving your understanding. And there's just a void. It's like a black hole. Yeah, I tell them that fluency is not essential. Understanding is, adding value is. And you can do that without being fluent. I know lots of very capable speakers who will struggle to say what they want to say, but they'll eventually get enough of the message out that their global counterpart will go, okay, so what you're saying is we need to divide the budget in this way and move this person here. And they'll get the message because the person is passionate and trying. I presume that's similar in Europe. Like you said, if people are trying to be perfect and fluent. Like I said to this guy yesterday, I said, I'm a native English speaker and my English is not perfect. None of us are perfect. We're all human. I just tell them, listen, it's a lovely goal to focus on long term, but right now you are not perfect. So you either stay quiet or use the skills you have. And there's a great Arthur Ashe quote, start where you are, use what you have, do what you can, which I really love. And I've had that translated into Japanese and we use that in some of my training. Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can, because it really says that you don't need anything more than what you have today. Of course, it's great to continue to study to build vocabulary, but you can probably say what you need to say very simply today if you speak. Yeah. And that's a problem here. We find with our learners in Germany, they compare themselves with others a lot. So there would always be, of course, people in the meetings who speak better because they spend more time in English speaking countries. But I really like that and how you bring that across, that it's a two channel communication. That's what I experience. English people help you out if they're interested, if you want to have a conversation and you show your try of using your hands, your facial expression. When I started, when I lived in England, so they saw, OK, she's interested. They would never turn their back on me and walk out of a conversation. I mean, that's not good. No, because they recognize your effort and they recognize that, well, you're not a native speaker and you're really trying to communicate here. We can help you do that. As long as you're trying, we can work together. And that's really important for all English learners to understand. People will help you if you make the first effort. Do you think this perfectionism comes a little bit from the education system? I get that impression a little bit in Germany, for sure. Yeah, Japanese is all about getting things right. And the education system is very much about passing tests, David. So it's built on that. It's a testing culture and the high scores are rewarded and high scores get you into the best university and that gets you into the best job. But that doesn't mean you're going to be the best employee, the best communicator. We need more than that. But that's how the system is set up and it's very hard to change that. They say it's changing bit by bit, but it's a very slow change. Yeah, but thankfully we have people like yourself who say this is the real life, yeah? This is how it should be. And if you're working in particular with Western people in particular, then that's what we need. How we do things, put it that way. Yeah, we talk a lot about when you say how we do things and as you're British, I presume from the accent. Yes. And this is a good point. I often refer back to the culture map by Erin Meyer and one of the quotes she uses in there, she says multicultural teams need low context processes. Right, yeah. Multicultural teams need low context processes. And when you look at that and you say, well, okay, so we've got a multicultural team, we've got a Japanese, some English speakers, there's a couple of Aussies, there's a few Americans. There's a mixed group. There might be an Indian or a Korean, etc. That multicultural group needs low context processes. What are those low context processes? So we talk about this in Japanese, that Japan is a high context language where you listen a lot. You are expected to guess the meaning if it's not clear. You try and read the mind of the person as to what you're reading between the lines and guessing the meaning and you don't interrupt and asking questions is not encouraged often. Whereas you have English, which is very much that chaotic style of talking where people interrupt, they ask for repetition, there's questions firing across, there's people agreeing and disagreeing. It's their low context processes. So when we go back to, if you go back to the super six, they are key low context processes. Interrupting is one, asking for repetition, asking for clarification, paraphrasing, asking questions. They're all low context processes. So if you can learn to do that, you can start to recognise that the rules that govern English are different to the rules that govern Japanese. Now, they're both languages, but how you use the language is vastly different. And one of my drawings, actually, it's this one up here. I did this drawing where it shows Japanese, it's like a game of chess. And it's very regulated. People take their turn. They wait quietly and patiently, whereas English is like a game of rugby. Grab the ball, steal the ball, throw the person, drop them on the ground. Wonderful, chess and rugby, yes. Yes, they're both languages that are used to communicate, but the rules that govern them are so different. And if you go onto a field of rugby and you try to play by the rules of chess, you'll die, you know, you just won't make it. So we've got to learn the rules that generally native English speakers use, and then try and follow those rules. Join in, yeah. And we may not be perfect, but we've got to recognise that they're different. Yeah, absolutely. I'm just thinking where German would be there. I mean, I read the book, The Culture Map, and we're going to put that in the show now. So I think we recommended it in our episode about reading. Yeah, yeah. I think Erin needs to update that. I think it's time she updated that book. It's a bit old now. We need a new version. When you said like Japanese... That's my message to you, Erin. Yeah, we're going to pass that on. Oh, wonderful. So when you said Japanese will try to maintain harmony and they are not putting themselves forward, I thought like, okay, English come in the middle and Germans will be the ones who really put themselves forward very often. So I have to look that up in the book again, so whether I'm wrong. And what kind of sports would Germany say? I mean, football, obviously football. I've done that kind of drawing also with like soccer and Japanese soccer, which is a much gentler sport than rugby. That's another kind of way to look at it. But I thought chess is even better because it's just so kind of structured. There's a time limit for you to talk, to you to have a turn and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, silence. I think that matches. So when you work out where Germany is, let me know. I'll draw your picture. Thank you. As to the pictures, another question came into my head. There are certain colors. Obviously, they come back in red and green and purple or pink. Have you got like one main character figure? I mean, they look similar, but do you? No, I don't. And the colors are just simply what I pull out of the bag of my highlighter pens and what I feel like using that day. There's always a kind of contrast somewhere there. Yeah, I see that. Or there might be a range of colors that represent something. But no, there's no kind of repeatable character. It's generally like this is the Japanese person. This is the English person. There's a bit of that. And I like comparing what happens in English to what happens in Japanese. And a lot of the comments on LinkedIn, it's interesting. They say, oh, this is interesting because in Spain, we do the same thing. Or in Italy, we also lack the courage to speak up or ask our boss for clarification. So these aren't, although I'm writing from a Japanese perspective, these are not just I recognize not just Japanese issues. And that's interesting to me, too. I mean, I don't have experience in working with people from South America or Spanish or Italian. So I just talk about what I know. But it's funny how it resonates beyond that. Super. Yeah, isn't that fantastic? Yes. And how long does it take you to do a drawing? That will be towards the end. They look as you really took the time and one or two hours. Yeah. Some of them take two or three. Yes. OK. Just recently, I got an iPad because I thought I need to do some digital drawing just in case I want to use these in a book or something. So I started doing that. I'm not sure. I like. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say you need to do a book. Something. Absolutely. Thank you. I'm kind of having fun with the iPad, too, because the benefit of that is I can erase really quickly because I make lots of mistakes. So that's why I usually start with pencil and go over it. And there was once or twice where I did a drawing and I just spent two hours and I didn't like it. So I just start again when you're doing it in pen and paper. And that takes a long time. You think, oh, no, but. Yeah, but David Hockney now did drawings on iPads in the end. I don't know why, because at his age, it's curiosity. Yes. Yeah. I kind of feel guilty using the iPad because it's not really my thing, but it's just another tool that I've got to get used to. But I do love drawing pen on paper. It's just something there's a different feel about it. Please don't ask AI to support you. No. I think I would say, sorry, you're already basic enough. So, yeah, it's fun. I really like the drawings and I you never know how it's going to hit with people, too, because sometimes you do a drawing. You think, oh, this is all right. This message is good and it resonates with people. I did one the other week about engagement and I thought, well, this is a really good drawing. I didn't get much engagement. So you can never work it out. Yeah. But it shows you're having fun and it's fun and something you enjoy. Yeah, I really enjoy that. I love when people comment and I can interact and I like hearing their thoughts, all of that stuff. That's what makes LinkedIn really valuable to me. It's that interaction with people, hearing their thoughts. And I especially love it when I get Japanese people commenting on the posts because a lot of them are false. But see, in Japan, LinkedIn is not a big platform. Instagram's big. Facebook is big. Twitter is big. But again, Japanese are very cautious about sharing too much of their lives and business lives. So they still think of LinkedIn as something like from the other planet, the 90s, when it was just a place where you posted a resume or that sort of thing, or you updated your business status. But it's far more now. And especially, as you said before, having the guts to write on LinkedIn from the Japanese perspective. So that must be a great feeling for you that these guys have actually taken the time, had the guts to write something, given their cultural background. Yeah, David, that's so true. It does take courage for them to write something. I try to respond to everybody who comments on my posts. And especially the Japanese, I really make an effort to kind of thank them and appreciate the fact that they've made that effort. Because it's just not a kind of natural thing for them to do that in a business sense. They might do it on Facebook, but even there, maybe less so than in the West or in non-Japanese countries. Have you got another question? Thank you very much, Jeff. I have some more questions. We cut that out. No, don't cut that out. That's okay. Jeff, I love traveling. And first of all, where are you based in Japan? I'm in Tokyo. In Tokyo, okay. I've been in Tokyo the whole time I've been in Japan, but I've done a lot of traveling in Japan. So that's my next question, if I may interrupt. Go ahead. You can interrupt. Yes, yes, yes. Could you recommend three places to visit? Maybe our listeners would like to also go to Japan. And of course, everyone knows Tokyo. But are there three places in Japan that may be a little bit off the beaten track or maybe hidden gems for culture or whatever? Let me go further afield. There's a place called Shirakawa-Go. And it is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. And it's located not far from Kanazawa, which is on the sea of Japan coast. So you imagine most people have an idea of Tokyo, where Tokyo is. So it's to the west and kind of north of Tokyo. It takes about three hours, four hours by the bullet train, the Shinkansen, to get to Kanazawa. And from there, you can take a bus. And this village in winter, you can go there winter or summer, but I was there in winter in November last year, December, November, December. And it's traditional thatched roof houses. They're set in this area of rice paddies. And it's just this winter wonderland that's just covered over in winter with snow that's really, really thick and heavy. And it's just gorgeous. There's lots of little coffee shops or places where you can grab a beer or a snack and have a wander. And there's a lovely lookout that looks out over the village. Very, very traditional village. That's one. Should have colour goal. I love a place called Kiso-ji, which is Kiso Valley, which is on the route, the old route between Tokyo and Kyoto. And it used to be this path that would follow to get from Tokyo to Kyoto. And there's a couple of old towns, these very traditional towns. And you go there and you walk around, you can't see any sign of electricity. There is there, but it's all built in behind and underground. So it has a really nice traditional feel to the place. And you can walk in a day between those two towns. You might stay in one town, walk to the next one, stay there. Just very traditional, old wooden houses set in beautiful, in the beautiful natural landscape. And you get some lovely views. Beyond that, I mean, I'm going to say Kyoto. I know people are probably sick of Kyoto, but it's just a fascinating place. The problem with it these days is it's just so crowded. There's so much to see there in terms of gardens and temples and all those sort of places. It's a gorgeous place. But let me give you one bonus place. That's a place called Nozawa Onsen, which is where I go snowboarding. When I do go snowboarding, it's a really beautiful village. It's not a resort town. It's a Japanese village that's kind of built around the edge of some beautiful slopes, ski slopes. But it just has a very nice, lazy kind of feel about it. It's becoming more and more known these days, so it's busier. I think it was Chris Hemsworth who brought it to attention. He went there last year or the year before or something. So now, unfortunately, now everyone knows about it. We don't really relate here in Europe. We don't really relate Japan as a skiing area. Oh, yeah. Well, okay. I mean, they say that Japan has the second best snow in the world in, I think they say, is it Colorado that maybe has one of those places has the powder snow? Yeah. So I took up snowboarding at age 50. That's about two years ago. People used to talk about powder snow and wet snow, and I'm, what's this? But the powder snow, it's like snowboarding through a cloud. It's just beautiful. Whereas the wet snow is the really hard, icy stuff, which we have in Australia, apparently. But yeah, Japan has this beautiful powder snow, and it has lots of, if you're there at the right time, the snow is really heavy and deep. And it's really cheap to snowboard or ski here compared to, say, the US or Europe, I believe, especially the US, very expensive. So, you know. You have to get there. That's not cheap for us. That is true. Yes. And it's a long way. I am thinking, Jeff, do you speak Japanese? Do you speak any languages? My Japanese is very basic. You could have a conversation with Rebecca if she was here because she learned Japanese. All right. Okay. What a shame. You could have tried. No, every year I sit down and go, this is the year I'm going to really study. I know people who speak it really well, and they still say, oh, I really struggle with talking to this person or that person. It's just one of those languages that I think you can learn it and still feel very frustrated. Yeah, you see, people do feel frustrated. So, yeah, I should take my own advice is probably what I should say. And do more, take more effort. I feel exactly the same with Spanish. Okay, right. How long have you been there, David? Four years. Is it now? Four? Wow. Yeah, time flies. Where are you based? I'm based in Valencia. Okay. So, inland. Valencia is inland, right? Oh, no, no. It's actually on the coast. If you know where Mallorca is, Ibiza. So, it's basically on the mainland, obviously, but basically the same level as the Balearic Islands. So, I feel exactly the same as you. I know languages from the past, French or the German, because I lived in Germany for many years. But just getting over the hump sometimes with Spanish, I have to do what I preach a little. That's why I hate that question, Bilgeit. Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry. No, no, not at all. I'm an unusual sort of, people would look for native speakers, obviously, when they want to learn English. So, I'm the one, the alien, maybe. Well, it's interesting. I don't think, I mean, I know quite a few Japanese who make really good English communication teachers, because they've got a different understanding. They understand the background, and they've lived abroad for a bit, and they've got an understanding of that different language, the high context, the low context. I think they're terrific. So, I don't think, it's not always the native speaker who's going to help you the best. Exactly. And I know a lot of people on LinkedIn who talk about this, that they're trying to get a job in Spain, but they're looking for white Caucasian male or white Caucasian. And you just think, that's not the way it has to be. Yeah, exactly. Look at what people can bring to it. The language is owned by everybody. It's not owned by those few countries where it came from these days. Exactly. It's your language if you choose to make it so. You can own it. You know, you can adapt it. You can change it. You can say things your way. It's a living language. Use it, modify it, change it. That's fine. Yeah. Wow. Very insightful. Thank you so much for making the effort to bring that microphone. I would love to ask you guys a range of questions. Maybe you should come back again later on. We have a part two. Well, you invite me, I'm happy to come back again. That was fun. Oh, that's great. Good to hear. Don't take your microphone back to your son though. No. I'm in Japan now, so he's lost it. Ah, yeah, yeah, okay. But it's quite cool actually. Yeah, yeah. I quite like using it now. I'll be using it for everything. You seem to enjoy it. Yeah, we do. Thank you very much. So, are you ready to upgrade your English? Do you still feel maybe not confident, uncomfortable when you speak English? Or maybe you're stuck at a certain level and you're trying to upgrade, take it to the next level? Why not join us, the three English experts at a workshop, a two-day live workshop in Cologne in September. We are aiming to give you all the skills you're going to need to give yourself a kickstart, push, moving forward, positive step in the right direction. We are going to work on communication skills with Dave. You're going to work on your grammar and structure with Birgit. And finally, your positive mindset and motivation with me, Rebecca. So, if you're interested, head over to our website, threeenglishexpertsworkshop.com. And if you book before the 30th of June, we have a really nice early bird offer with a special price and lots of extras. This is not just two days. After the two days, we are also offering some follow-up sessions, six one-hour free conversation lessons, a follow-up with one of the experts, and we will also give you a roadmap so that once you step out of those two days, you know exactly where you need to go and what you need to do next. It's going to be fun, it's going to be interactive, and we would love to see you there. So, head over to that website, threeenglishexpertsworkshop.com and book your place now.