Interview with Grammar Superstar Ellen Jovin and Filmmaker Brandt Johnson from New York

(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, we are the 3 English Experts. I'm Rebecca. I'm Dave. I'm Birgit. And welcome to this episode. 3 English Experts is your English podcast to help you speak better English and create a positive and happy mindset for your English learning journey. So, hi guys, everybody. Welcome back to this episode. Dave is out today. Dave is on holiday. Enjoying a break from me and Birgit. But we have a very, very special guest today. Birgit is so excited. Cannot tell you how excited it is. She's just out of the world crazy today because we have a special guest speaker. Our very first guest speaker on our podcast. Birgit, drumroll, would you like to introduce our speaker for today? Yes. Hello, everybody. And thank you, Rebecca. So, we have Ellen Jovin from New York and her husband, Brad Johnson. And I just want to tell you why I came across them and how was that we met and why I asked her to come on to the podcast. I actually bought a book from her in 2018, I think, that was about English at work. And I thought that was a fantastic book and I really liked the style and was the way it was written. And from then on, somehow I on the social media, I found out that Ellen was doing a grammar table and that was so fascinating to me. So she sat in the streets of New York and answered questions of American people to grammar. And that was wow. I went to her website and I thought she had T-shirts, which obviously I bought some. And then there was some trouble in sending them over. And she replied. That was ever so nice. So I had a real reply from her on an email and I was like, wow. And ever since, I think we have been writing emails. So when I have a question, the one, the person I tend to ask is Ellen. And I've had a couple of emails writing and always had a nice answer. And now, well, she's written a book about this journey with the grammar table and a film. And this is why Brent Johnson, her husband, is here. He's the director of the film. And they will talk about it. And Ellen, please tell us all about the grammar table. And I'm really excited because I think it's so fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for that very enthusiastic introduction. And yes, you are one of my most grammatically in-depth grammar correspondents. Your questions are always very subtle and I appreciate them, that you're thinking about things in such detail. Because one thing I definitely like is a lot of grammar detail. Okay, so do I. Yeah, that is clear. So you asked about the grammar table. I will just give an overview. It is a pop-up advice stand, just a folding table. I made a sign that said grammar table on it. The words actually grammar table. And I set it up outside our apartment building and started answering people's questions in 2018. And I did it because I thought it would be fun. That's why I do a lot of things in my life. And so it just happened to be another thing that I thought seemed like fun. And it took off and we ended up. Brant, my husband, who's here. Hi, Brant. Hello. You're not in the same room. You're in different locations. So I began, I think a few weeks in, it started to seem like maybe the table could be the basis of a book. But then Brant also was there. Brant, do you want to comment on? I'd be happy to chime in. So Ellen set up this folding table on the streets outside of our apartment. And I would be around and often just sort of taking in the grammar action, seeing who is coming to the table, watching the interactions. And they were so much fun and they were funny and lively and often intimate and connecting in a way that was just beautiful. And at the time, it was 2018. It was very divided politically and socially, as it still is. And it just seemed like this place of human connection. And with grammar being the vehicle to have people come together. And it was just, I felt as though I really, I wanted to start filming and share it with the world. Wow. What a story. Yeah, so those two things happened. I started to think of a book and Brant started to think of a film at very much the same time. And I wrote a book proposal that said, we're going to go all over the country with this and Brant will film and I'll write a book. And so that's the proposal that was accepted. And I finished the book and it came out in 2022. Rebel with the Claws and Brant finished the film. So you spent six years. We had, so that Ellen was able to write and finish her film, her book during COVID. And COVID actually stopped us in our journeys. We were planning to make it up to all 50 states. And when COVID hit, we had made it to only 47. So we were missing Alaska. Well, which was quite a lot. Only three missing. Yes, yes. And we were missing Alaska, Hawaii and Connecticut. And Connecticut is very near. I was going to say, isn't that just right by you? It is. It was right there. The one you didn't do. So people get a big laugh out of that. Oh, sure. Okay. Alaska, Hawaii. And wait, what? Connecticut? And Brant's also from Connecticut, by the way. Yeah. We were there. We were there. We were ready to shoot some grammar action. What happened was, before COVID, we were all set, but we were hungry. And so we got pizza. And then it got dark and it was cold. And we thought, we can just come back soon. So we just went home. I think we were driving, right? We were driving that day. So anyway, we just drove home. And then we never got there until 2020. So I wanted for the film to have all 50 states. So I, during COVID, while Ellen was writing and finishing her book, I was editing the film. I had, over the course of the shooting, 400 hours of footage. So there was just an enormous amount of editing to do. So I was busy with that during COVID. But I wanted to have the last 50 states before finishing the film and having the whole piece. So after two years and seven months on hiatus, unable to go out and do the grammar table, we headed out and actually made it to Connecticut and Alaska and Hawaii to finish the tour. Perfect. Wow. Brent, do you have a background as a filmmaker? Yeah, I wanted to ask, did you just do that all on your own? Like just filming, editing, directing? I don't know. I do not have a background in filmmaking. I've written and produced several plays in a comedy web series. But none of those is really at all a feature film. So this was a first thing for me. And I did produce and direct and shoot it and do the sound and the editing. And it was a lot. And it's beautiful. I had the honor to see it yesterday. He sent it to me and I saw it. And it's real fun. I mean, knowing there were so many hours you had to cut down into like one and a half hours. And that was so funny. I had to laugh when people. Yeah, you had some comments on questions too, Brent. So the man standing with a camera commented and then the people said, oh, what a nice smile of the husband. Wonderful. So it was interaction. Yeah, that's so funny how that part made it into the movie. I actually, I really love. Selective editing, yeah. I love it. I love the wit of his editing. And I think, so I think it's really important. And, you know, when I think about all of this, if I'd been left to my own devices, I might still just be alone at the table by a garbage can on the street corner. But Brent has taken the interactions and given them, given people a way to see them. And through just an extraordinary combination of tasks. So he was the cinematographer, the director, producer and editor. And I'm leaving out other things. But I also, you know, when we were out on the streets of 50 states, there was no one else there. We didn't have like a, you know, a crew in another car. It was just the two of us. So I would be talking to people about commas and then they'd run off to get an ice cream or something. And we wouldn't have, we have to get releases signed by everyone. So then if I hadn't gotten the release or, you know, they hadn't, like, we hadn't had time to do that. Brent with all his gear attached and would go running down the street and, you know, get the person to sign a release. So it's, it's actually, and you see people signing releases in the movie because there was no one to handle. You know, often it's like part of, even embedded in the discussion of Oxford commas, for example, someone signing a release, commenting on the comma before the and in a list. So just watching him overcome all the, you know, learning hurdles and do so many different things. And the music, like so much of the, you know, the music is very important. And I just sat there and like hung out and conjugated verbs. Just one more question to the film, because that was the other moment when I really laughed out loud. You were sitting, I think it was in Texas, somewhere in the middle of nowhere. I mean, there was like a public footpath and I walked the dog or something. And there were like two people passing by and the runner, a jogger. And then he stopped and he asked a question. So I just imagine I walk the dog somewhere where I go. A lady sitting there. I mean, not many people pass by and do that. How did you, how did you choose your spots then? Did you just. There was a lot of improvisation. I mean, we would be, you know, often weather weather would determine things. Like, for example, in Ohio, we were going to go to Cleveland and then it was raining there. It was raining in Columbus. It was raining in every northern city that I was had had, you know, in mind as a possibility. And so we just kept driving until we got to Toledo. I mean, that's literally how we ended up in a totally different city. So it was often mapped rather spontaneously while we were actually in the car. And lots of hotels were booked from the car, you know, while we're driving. I mean, that that certainly is an improvement over 20 years ago. And we've done road trips before, but it wasn't so easy to just plan. And then Grant would sometimes scout for a good location when we were in a city, because we have to pick a place that's, you know, reasonably safe and populated. And so sometimes I would be standing there on a street corner with the table and he would be off looking around for a good, good place. Coffee and ice cream and books are often good. Like stores that deal with those three things are often good spots. You know that and that that place you mentioned in Austin was Zilker Park, which is a very popular park in Austin. So there are lots of people walking on it, but it was pretty random feeling. I loved that. That was one of my favorite locations. Yeah, that was a great spot. Did you ever get moved on by the police or anything? Did they go, oh, you're not allowed to do this or you're not allowed to sit here? We did. In fact, we generally did not have permits for anywhere and we would show up and people were generally happy to have us. That was not the case. We did get a permit for Venice Beach. We were there all day with an official film person who accompanied us and it was all very official. But we were ejected in Cape May, New Jersey and we were ejected in Memphis and we were ejected in Buffalo. Just for not having a permit or what reasoning did they give for that? Just for being there. Oh, no grammar tables are allowed on this side. It's a rule. It's a rule. You can see it in the laws, in the bylaws of the city. Sidewalks, no grammar tables. Sometimes it was a private property issue. For example, we were at this mall in Memphis and there's a giant park. Well, it's sort of concrete for a park. There's a lot of concrete for a park, but it's right across from the mall. But apparently it's privately owned. So depending on whether it didn't look like it would be an issue, but for them it was. I remember we were touching the wall. I think we're up against the bank on the bank side of the sidewalk in Buffalo. And they didn't like that. I wonder if we'd been on the outside of the sidewalk, if we would have been allowed to stay. What do you think, Brant? Maybe. I'm not sure. And Cape May was not happy to have grammar table there in the middle of things. And they sent us off to get a permit from the city hall, which we did. And they gave us a permit to be on the edge of a parking lot where nothing much was going on. There was no grammar action there. Ended up sitting on the edge of a parking lot in Cape May. This kind of brings us nicely on to the next question. Could you do this in Germany, Birgit? Could you have a Grammerklapptisch? Could I do it? Do you think it would be possible? Do you think Germans would come and talk to people about grammar? How do you think? I don't know. Do you have many foreigners who come and talk to you? I think in the film there are a lot of non-native English speakers, right? Oh, lots. Yeah. But no Germans. I saw no Germans. They were not in the film. They were not in the film, maybe. I don't know. It's true. We did not. I mean, I'm sure at some point we spoke to German people, but it didn't happen a lot. We did get Germanic languages represented with that nice Dutch woman. There's a Dutch woman in the film. Yeah. Eight languages in the film. Okay. Many, yeah, many. And I must say the first chapter, it starts with the grammar zeitgeist, it says. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that was the first thing I noticed. That's a nod. That's a nod. Okay, that's one thing. So zeitgeist, it's not trans… We had the Klapptisch, you know, on the streets of Frankfurt where I live or wherever. Would Germans, do you think, Birgit, would they come and discuss German grammar? Well, I wouldn't be sitting there because I don't know much about the German grammar. I mean, that's the first thing. But this is the thing. When I learned about the grammar table, Ellen's grammar table, I asked myself the question, would that work? Would anybody sit down in the streets in Germany, in Dusseldorf or Berlin, and answer grammatic questions? I don't know. I think the Germans, though, would ask questions, though. I think the Germans would ask questions. They're very… Because I was thinking, you know, there was that book. I don't know if you guys have heard this book. When I first arrived in Germany in the early 2000s, there was a really famous book called Der Dativ ist im Genitiv sein Tord. And it was this really geeky, nerdy grammar book. And I remember thinking, why is this a bestseller? It was like top bestseller. And someone bought it for me. And I was thinking, oh, goodness, I've just finished studying German. I don't think I want to do this. And it was so popular. It was really, really popular. And it was fun. And it was very detailed. And it was informative. So the Germans would like to talk about grammar, maybe. But I don't know. I do think there's… I've considered possibilities for different countries, you know, just based on our travel experience, how I think people might react. And I do think some places, there's just more of a table culture. It just seems more natural. And I don't know how it would be in Germany. I feel like there might be more rules about whether you can just set up on the street. 100%. People tell you, you can't do that. And it probably is in some rules somewhere that grammar tables. No grammar tables. Grammatisch or whatever is not allowed. Just like in Buffalo. Between nine and two o'clock on a Saturday of the third of the month. There would be some rule like that, wouldn't there? Yeah. But what was very interesting in the film, again, is that people, there were both kinds of people. I think that was on purpose that you put that in there, Brian. People who said, oh, I've always loved grammar. And people who said, oh, I've always been scared of grammar. Yeah. So what do you say, there were like a balance or were there more of this or more of that? Yeah, I think there really is a balance. And the passion that people have for this is really fascinating to me. And I think it is in part about what ideas we connect to as young people. And when we are forming our emotions and intellects and we are bonding to this stuff, it's really powerful. And so maybe you have a really powerful affinity for something you were taught and you don't want to change it because that's part of you. And if someone comes along and says, well, actually, you can let that go. No. But that's part of my sort of infrastructure is one sort of end of things and other people just having a fear, a shame. One woman in the film talks about feeling shame because it never quite stuck for her or she doesn't have the sort of understanding that she might. But there is a spectrum for sure. But an interest in it, a caring about it in some way, a strong feeling about it, whether it's positive or negative or curious or seems to be everywhere. Super. Oh, I love that. And you say and at some point you say grammar is an anchor. And I really like that. Ellen, you say grammar is an anchor. I've always felt like, yeah, it gives you structure. It gives security for people. Yeah, it's funny because sometimes people say, do you think people would be interested? I've always been confused about this because I've been teaching writing my whole life. I know people are interested. People love haggling over the little details. I mean, there are a lot of people say, oh, it's so boring. But then the next minute they're saying, OK, but should I put that comma there or is that, you know, what's this verb form? So there's I feel like there's a discrepancy between the public reputation of grammar and how people actually do viscerally, you know, interact with it. One hundred percent. I agree with that. And I really like this emotion thing, you know, that people have had this background of some kind of either positive or negative thing. And so and they carry that their whole life. You know, it's weird, isn't it? It goes around as a sort of negative or positive baggage, whichever way around it is. There's a lot of nostalgia. I think in our early observations of people viewing the film, people are coming with nostalgia and there's often like people will come with their siblings and say, you know, it's in honor of our mother, you know, like so who's no longer with us. It's very personal and emotional. So it's deep. It's it's it's very moving to me. It is deep. And we find in the screenings that we've been doing how it's just pulling out of people spontaneous, either an outburst, a cheer, a clap, a groan. Oh, kind of thing. Just that is just that there's this visceral outpourings of experiencing the film, which is just wonderful. Fantastic. Do you have another question? Yes, I just wanted to point to what you said, the curiosity part. I think we'll learn about that when we listen to Mignon and the other podcasts you are online. You are a naturally curious person, you say that. And I think, Rebecca, that's your subject, positive psychology. When we learn languages and maybe as a background information, Alan speaks, I think you speak six languages or and you studied over 20 or something. You are a polyglot person. So curiosity and positive mindset. Is that important when we learn a language? Absolutely. So I'm studying positive psychology and I'm trying to, with all of my sort of assignments, link it to linguistics and second language learning. And I just noticed when I think the grammar girl, she asked you, you know, are you an extrovert? And you said, I'm not an extrovert, but I'm curious. And I think you agreed with that. And I think a paper I was reading recently, actually from the 1970s, and they were already studying what makes a good language learner. And they were looking at characteristics of people who were perceived as good language learners, who learned multiple languages and became fluent. And one of the top characteristics was curiosity. And it just made me think, oh, that's that's an interesting connection. So do you think there are other characteristics that make good language learners? So if you are learning a second language, what kind of characteristics do you need, do you think? I think being aware of what gives you pleasure. So, for example, I come at language learning from multiple angles. I'll do grammar. I'll do audio lessons. I'll do vocabulary. And I'm very aware of the moment that I start to get frustrated or unhappy or the, you know, the forward movement seems to slow down. I just switch quickly to another method. I feel so. I think there's a little bit of creativity about that, creating a package that works for you personally, but then also being able to move within it. So strategize around the obstacles, you know, especially if you're learning on your own, you don't have a teacher handy. But I've noticed that that people will pick a method and then get frustrated and give it up. Yeah, but I just figure if I'm getting a self-study, like if I'm buying a self-study product for a fraction of what it would cost to take a class, I can buy another self-study product and then I can use them together and together they'll make a better self-study product. I also think that curiosity thing applies to this entire undertaking, not just the language part, but just about people. You know, long ago, 20 years ago, Brant and I were doing cross-country drives in the U.S. There's an attitude from some people here that, you know, that there's no point in going to the flyover states. You know, you go from the east coast to the west coast, the west coast to the east coast, forget about the stuff in the middle. And I've never felt that way. And Brant and I have gone, we'd already been to, I think our state count was not identical. I think Brant had been to a couple more states than I have, but he had been to maybe 44 and I'd been to 42 already before we ever did this, you know, before we ever took the grammar table anywhere. And I think valuing things that are different from you, valuing new languages, valuing people who have had different experiences, different educational levels, like there's so much just to learn from a varied and beautiful world and staying open to that feels central to this. Yeah, that's absolutely, yeah. And that attitude and approach to life that Ellen has is what makes the interactions at the grammar table, what makes people open up to her, what makes the interactions connected and meaningful for people, that because she is genuinely curious, genuinely respectful, open, welcoming, responsive, and really meets people where they are. People from every imaginable background come up to the table, every sort of person that you can imagine. And the interactions and the way Ellen welcomes them and just engages in the moment of whatever that idea is they want to discuss is just beautiful. Fantastic. Is that, you know, learning so many different languages, is that what drives you to learn other languages? You know, because when I learn another language and often I get the question when I say I'm learning, I don't know, Polish and someone goes, why? You know, and I always struggle to answer that because I don't really need Polish. I'm probably never going to work in Poland. So I always struggle sometimes. I just go, well, it's fun. But then I think, why? Yeah. Why? Why am I doing that? So I would just wonder, what is it that motivates you? Is it just this curiosity or this connection? It just seems like something that I need to know. Okay. Yeah. And I just want to also just to be clear, my language skills are in a constant state of attrition. So yes, I have. I have been fluent in six at a time, but I would need a few months practice to get them up to, you know, some of them to feeling, feeling good right now. Which again is also normal, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Especially it's right. There's an ebb and a flow. But so I've restudied, I've restudied a bunch of languages many times. Like when we go to Italy, I restudy my Italian before we go. Yeah. Okay. Can I just ask a question to Brent? Because I think we should mention that you were a basketball player in Germany? Professional? That's true. When was that? And you play, you speak German then? Ambition. Ambition. Okay. Do you need it for basketball? I don't know. Is it? Yeah. That's right. Well, no, I suppose the coach spoke English and my teammates spoke English. So didn't need it, but it was useful because everything wasn't always English. And so I studied it. I studied it while I was there. And actually my French probably got better than my German that year, because I had a Moroccan girlfriend who spoke French. It's her first language. And my German was fledgling at that point. So we spoke French, which I had studied in school. So my French at the end of that year was fantastic. My German was conversational and I worked at it, but I wouldn't say I achieved fluency. And where did you play? Offenbach. Oh my goodness. That's so interesting because my husband is Irish and he played rugby when we first moved here. And they don't have professional rugby in Germany. They have a Bundesliga and he played rugby in the Bundesliga. And actually for his German skills, he always learned all this really like, let's call it colorful language. So when we first came to Germany, if I needed some bad words, I'd be like, tell me your stuff. He learned it because his team was actually quite mixed expats and Germans. So the sport experience, it was different language to what I was learning, let's say, but it was actually pretty useful. So the Bundesliga, this was years ago. This was 1990. Last century. Yeah, the last millennium. But he played in Offenbach. He played rugby in Offenbach, so it's obviously that hangout. Yes, this was a, we had a mix. I guess I was the one non-German player there. And it was the Bundesliga. It's called Bundesliga as well. This was Zweite Bundesliga in Offenbach. Yeah, that's so funny. Offenbach. But it was a wonderful cultural and language experience and athletic experience. It was fantastic. And did you live there? Did you live in Offenbach? I did. Oh, wow. Okay. Yes. I spent many hours standing on the side of a pitch watching rugby in Offenbach. Oh, that's so funny. Wow. I lived for a brief spell in Niederoden. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Wow. The world can be a small place, especially when you speak languages. I know that I didn't play basketball, but you have to ask me about my German background. Yes. So what's your German background? Have you lived in Germany? That was a good link, wasn't it? You must have lived in Germany. I did live in Germany from around age two to age four. And I went to German kindergarten. So I spoke German as a little kid. And then I moved back to the U .S. and lost it. But two of my sisters grew up in, my half sisters grew up in Germany. So I had, you know, native German speaking relatives. And my dad still lives there. So are you coming to Germany soonish or when will you be coming regularly? I hope so. It's overdue. I hope so. Yeah, we would love to screen the film in Germany. That's my next question. I did make an effort. I did make an effort to set up a screening in Germany and it hasn't happened. But, you know, things are... This is just the beginning. It's just the beginning. So at the moment, our listeners, you can only actually see it in the States. Is that right? At the moment, in the States, in person, in cinemas.